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Men do matter; but so do women
Posted by Raven on January 2nd, 2007
I don’t know how this article came to my attention…it just did. I read it many times and thought a lot about it. It irked me to no end. I am far from being a feminist woman; I like men, I think I am very straightforward with that. I believe men have been on the receiving end of a lot of bullshit from society and from women in particular. However, this guy has a few things wrong.
Do Men Still Matter?
I just finished reading Donald Miller’s book, To Own A Dragon. It’s about men who grow up without fathers, and how that can affect a boy as he develops into a man. It’s a fantastic book.
It starts out good enough. Then the writer almost loses me (and many others) as he wanders on and on about Christian bloggers and other books and other non sense….it’s very difficult to read this post because it goes back and forth so much, is confusing and there is much blabbering.
It’s no wonder so many men are depressed and confused about their role. It’s no wonder divorce rates are high. It’s no wonder men cheat on their wives or become addicted to a fantasy world of pornography (a world where images of women who are gorgeous and adoring are easy to find).
This is a cop out of epic proportions. Today’s women are far more “advanced”, sexually, than any woman of the past. If anything, today’s woman is much better prepared to take on every sexual fantasy any man could ever dream of…and this threatens men.
Should a man desire to be head of his household and a woman decide to be a domestic supporter, it is viewed as absurd and pathetic. I’m generalizing, I know, but you get the point. And while some may say that I am making too big of a deal of sitcoms (and I may be), I say that this is a reflection of a much larger problem.
Mistake number one: A wife is a partner…she is the other half of what should be a lifelong relationship full of love, admiration, respect and honor. A wife is not a domestic supporter. If she is viewed as such, the marriage is doomed. I hate to tell it like it is: The 50’s are gone. It may be due to feminism, it may not be. Women are stronger now, better educated and are able to fend for themselves. THIS IS WHAT TICKS MEN OFF. It’s the price society pays, for allowing men who think like this idiOt – to rule the nest without regard or respect to the gifts women bring into the relationship. In other words, I think men took advantage of the woman who chose to stay at home and raise the kids. Women got fed up with it and wanted change.
In the now famous book His Needs, Her Needs, Willam Harley wrote of the following emotional needs of women:
-Affection
-Conversation
-Honesty and Openness
-Financial Support
-Family CommitmentAnd the following emotional needs for men:
-Sexual Fulfillment
-Recreational Companionship
-Physical Attractiveness
-Domestic Support
-Admiration
I don’t agree with this list at all, for women. What’s missing from these lists?? LOVE. Without it, a relationship will never last.
In my world, women need:
Love and affection
Sexual fulfillment
Loyalty/Fidelity
and the bag of other important things:
An honest, articulate, smart, intelligent, attractive, fun loving, hard working, hard playing and MATURE MAN.
Many women DO place more value on man’s earning power; on the baggage he comes with. Women, when seeking a future husband, do look at the income, the job and career prospects, the reputation, the looks and feel of a man. Most have a list of acceptable and unacceptable traits. Every man must pass a litmus test before a woman would consider him a serious contender.
It isn’t right yet this is what women were conditioned to do way back in the day. Men wanted sex, food and a clean home in exchange for a lifelong commitment. Feminism did change this.
Even Christian women have been given this feminist chip on their shoulders, and in many cases it’s a crippling chip. I think it’s safe to say that many women will look at a list like this and say things like:
“Sexual fulfillment? I’m not an object!”
“Recreational companionship? I’m my own person!”
“Physical attractiveness? That shouldn’t matter! How bigoted!”
“Domestic support? What do you want, for me to be barefoot and pregnant?”
“Admiration? I am empowered without a man!”
I never thought of it like this, but I am living my life the way I chose to, because of feminism…
My answers to this:
Sexual fullfillment?
I am an object and so are you. And you better be prepared to be good at it because I need that. If you don’t produce it, I’ll get it elsewhere.
Recreational companionship?
This is important and it goes both ways. Men have their hobbies and so do women. We compliment one another; we give and take from one another. It’s never going to be equal and I think most people know that.
No man in my life will become a boring, stay at home shut in who prefers to lay on the couch and exercise his fingers with the remote. NO FUCKING WAY. NEVER AGAIN. You better be prepared to go out hiking, climbing, roller blading, partying; you better be prepared for having a lot of friends and all the events friends tend to do together. You better be prepared to be involved with your children who need you so much. Damn straight.
Physical Attractiveness?
I keep myself in better shape than most men. I did it (and still do it) for ME, not for HIM. I want to be healthy and live a long life. I want to see my Grandkids and hopefully Great grandchildren. This has nothing to do with men. Yep…being in shape means I get looks and all that…but that’s not important to me- I don’t do it for any man. AND, a man in my life better be in decent shape too. I don’t care about looks, but I don’t want a fat slobby smelly pig either.
Domestic support?
Oh go to hell. I worked all my adult life AND kept the home fires burning. I cooked, cleaned, raised three kids, managed the money, did the laundry, the shopping, the oil changes…and never complained ONCE. All I asked for in return was on my list above.
Admiration?
As long as you’re intelligent, smart, articulate, hard working, hard playing and attractive you will get my admiration. End of discussion.
Do my stances on the above statements threaten men? TOUGH SHIT.
But when I say such things I am lying to myself. The simple fact is I REALLY DO want these things of my wife, each and every one of them. Truth be told, I love, absolutely love the fact that when I come home at the end of a long day of work my wife has cleaned the house and is making dinner for me. I love it that my wife finds it necessary to workout and maintain her physical attraction. I love the fact that my wife admires me, seeing me as intelligent and handsome. I don’t just love these things–I need and crave them.
Stop whining and get with the times. We all want the same things: Everyone wants to taken care of. This hasn’t changed over time. And it’s nothing to be ashamed of…but it is a problem when you insist upon living in times that are no longer compatible with the modern world. And remember this: Most women are totally turned off by men who whine, who complain. Like you.
It seems to me that modern feminism has had it’s impact, and it’s been an impact that has been decidedly anti-family. The correlation is clear, from the beginning of radical feminism in the early 1960’s to present, divorce rates have skyrocketed. Many have simply given up on the institution of marriage altogether.
So why bother? Why bother getting married when she won’t respect him and, as a result of this lack of respect, he won’t respect her? It’s more hassle, baggage and setup for disaster than it’s worth.
Why bother is right. If I could do it all over again, I would never have gotten married. But I would have children, because nothing is a fulfilling and important as raising them. I believe this is what women are here for, above all else, including submitting to a man.
I think most men want a partner, a wife, girlfriend- whatever- who is attractive, sexually honest and willing and able; who is warm, loving, compassionate; who is smart, articulate, fun loving, hard working and hard playing…they want a woman who can stand up for herself but who also needs the safety and protection only a man can give. Most men want a woman who will take care of them with respect and admiration…and most men are more than willing to give all this back and then some.
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:17 am
1. Thanks for the link.
2. Thanks for the excellent commentary. There’s a bigger picture here, and when I say “domestic supporter,” as you point out, it comes off way, way wrong. Completely.
That said, feminism, as it stand in radical circles, has told women that doing the laundry and cleaning the house is something to be ashamed of. Why? Why is there shame in this? I’m not saying it’s a woman’s role (unless the family has decided the woman is going to stay at home and take this role). What I am asking is why should women be ashamed to being supportive? (And I don’t mention men deliberately, because I have a number of other posts that do).
:-)
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:18 am
“I do it for ME, not for HIM.”
But the truth is HE wants you to stay attractive, like it or not…
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:31 am
Hell YEAH.
Feminism has a negative connotation now and it really shouldn’t. You think of fem-mulleted lesbians yelling slogans, burning bras, and refusing to shave their legs. All it really refers to is the idea that women have more to bring to the table (intelligence, conversation beyond the superficial, income-earning ability) than this article author’s idea of women as domestic supporters of men.
The “feminist” idea is now rather ingrained in our way of thinking that this fool who wrote the article immediately is recognized as a dinosaur. I mean, women weren’t even considered capable of VOTING until the 1920s, let alone holding a career, having kids, partying, etc etc. Would anyone even think to suggest that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote anymore? No. This guy is doing just that with his “domestic support” crap.
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:36 am
FTM– I do know what you meant by domestic partner. And it’s very sad that you feel this way. A relationship is a 2 way commitment and to expect one to place value on staying at home and doing nothing but domestic duties is really disrespectful. I worked cause I had to…and I kept up the house and all that. HE took advantage of some of that, but he was also very helpful with the kids and taking care of his domain- the garage, the cars, things like it.
I booted him out a couple years ago and divorced his ass…because he got too lazy for my tastes.
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:36 am
Oh and FTM- I could care less if HE wants me to stay in shape…many men are totally threatened by this as well…
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:39 am
Feisty is correct. Women offer so much for men…yeah we have our downside, but don’t ever forget- so do men. Women put up with a lot more garbage than we let on…we’re forgiving though. We let a lot of things slide.
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:39 am
Why is there shame in this?
1) There’s no need for most people to have a full-time housekeeper. Those who need full-time housekeepers can afford maids.
2) A woman who is made to think her “place” is in the home is being denied and/or is denying herself potentially fulfilling experiences in the workforce or otherwise out in the community. It’s shameful for both the woman and the man if both view the woman as a domestic entity only because she simply is not, no matter who she is.
January 2nd, 2007 at 10:08 am
You know whats so odd about all this?? My Mom used to tell me stories about her friends…she worked in the 50’s and most women did not. She told me how her friends would be miserable because their husbands would be off cheating and having affairs all the time. WHY? Cause the hubbies were bored with their wives- who were “forced” to stay at home. The women these men messed around with were working women.
Hmm. Staying at home = boring women.
So men would go off with women who were not stay at home types…says a lot. Working women are more entertaining, fun, open, flirty…sounds good to me and I would think guys would like it too.
January 2nd, 2007 at 10:37 am
“This guy is doing just that with his “domestic support” crap. ”
Wow. You’re reading a lot more into what I wrote than what is there. I didn’t say anything about men not supporting women, nor did I say anything about women not voting. Absurd.
All I said was that modern feminism has misled. MODERN. MODERN. Read that again: MODERN FEMINISM!
Staying at home is boring? Tell that to my wife. She works her ass off every day to support our kids. She has a master’s degree and CHOOSES to stay at home, and yet you have decided she’s boring. Nice.
January 2nd, 2007 at 10:43 am
FTM…I think you misread what I wrote..I was talking about things my Mother told me about the 1950’s.
Women who stayed at home to support the house were called boring, by many men of those times. Remember, many of those women were not educated…didn’t keep up with news and politics and relied on the men of their lives for these things.
I applaud women who chose to stay at home now and I think it’s important to the kids. They need a Mom. And a Dad…it’s about CHOICES. As long as she makes the choice and it’s not a condition of a relationship…
January 2nd, 2007 at 10:48 am
Did you see where I wrote this?
“Submission, from either spouse, need not be considered a dirty word. Submission is a good word, and a wonderful act of love.”
January 2nd, 2007 at 10:49 am
(By the way, worth noting: My mother was one of the women you describe. She dropped out of college, thinking she’d live happily ever after and her husband would take care of the family. It didn’t work that way, and she busted her butt as a single mom to raise us kids. I hate to see women suffer like that. It sucks, and that came from a cultural shift coming out of the 50s.)
January 2nd, 2007 at 11:44 am
Submission sounds so…loser like. Like surrender.
I would never call it an act of love though. Never.
January 2nd, 2007 at 1:23 pm
I see where the author of the original piece is coming from.
There has been a sea-change since the 50’s, brought on by feminism.
And now the only person one can safely criticize is the white male. Look at just about any sitcom (to use one of the examples, and you will see a husband that is out of shape and a doofus.
Women are told they dont need a man to be fulfilled, and that they can raise kids AND have a career, but how many women with kids run fortune 500 companies?
And women with kids often times create more work for the men and childless women they work with, by saying “timmy’s sick I gotta go” and leaving in teh middle of the day.
Try doing that as a man and watch the crap you catch.
The point is that men want a woman that is sexy and capable that will let them still be ‘free*’ (which is where a lot of troubles begin in marriages) while women want a good provider that treats them as the queen of the world.
*by free I mean still going out with the guys and having a good time without having to call in and check with the wife like he is some 14 year old out with his friends on a school night.
January 2nd, 2007 at 3:13 pm
It’s been said that men just need the three P’s:
Peace – Let him have peace and refuge in his castle.
Plate – Men like good meals.
P@$$y – Something that’s supposed to refer to sex.
We’re that simple.
January 2nd, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Kender– I’m glad we we’re around in the 50’s- I think those days must have been pretty boring for men. Just think: No slutty Britney’s and other bimbos. LOL
You bring up a good point about working Mom’s who miss a lot of time due to the sick kids…thats why we- my X and I- worked separate shifts. I rarely missed time.
I always let him go out with his friends. Hell yeah. And he didn’t need to call and check in. BUT, I went out with my friends too and if I didn’t call and check in there was trouble.
Fuck that shit. LOL
Mostly we did everything together though…it wasn’t til the end when he turned into a lazy SOB that I got bored with him…and ended the marriage. Never again. Has feminism given me this? Yeah. AM I taking advantage?? Yeah. I don’t need a man for support- I take care of myself quite well. I DO need a man for companionship though; for sex, recreational activity, conversation ect…Heh. Hell yeah.
January 2nd, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Woody- women have changed. Men haven’t. It’s pretty simple. Most men have benefited from this change too. Let’s be honest. I don’t know too many guys who haven’t had the pleasures of being with trampy girls and slutz when they’re all in high school and college; not too many guys of my generation have complaints about the readily available array of girls and women who are willing and able to be used for sex, free of any strings attached. The girls do these things because it makes them feel powerful- to be able to attract a guy is empowering. Most of them hope to hook up with the better guys.
Men have most certainly benefited from feminism. No doubt about it.
I have 3 simple needs too. LOL But I can’t discuss them here. Heh.
January 2nd, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Women. Yummy.
:twisted:8O
January 2nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm
LOL Duncan.
Men. Yummy.
:twisted:
Real men that is. Not whiny, complaining wusses who degrade men in general by simplifying their needs too much. Men are not stupid one celled beings who have little feeling or respect. They deserve better than what so many of their own lot say they need.
January 2nd, 2007 at 8:38 pm
The sort of men who feel threatened by the existence of powerful, educated, independent women are dangerous anachronisms. We’re better off without them.
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:20 pm
To tell you the truth. I want a companion, a best friend, and a lover. I can’t just be attracted to a nice pair of b00bs and a tight caboose. Those things tend to fade. My grand-uncle and my grand aunt were married for 60+ years before my grand aunt passed. That is along time, and I can only imagine the depth of that relationship. And ofcourse, I do believe I have that with my wife. (awwwwwwwww) :mrgreen::mrgreen:
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:21 pm
OH, but the nice pair and tight caboose are definitely nice to have too. :twisted::twisted::twisted:
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:35 pm
WOMD- I have no problem with a macho man who wants to protect his woman. Men are stronger, more forward and they can think clearly. Women need this from men. We don’t need to be told our place in the home. It’s not true anymore- and I’m not sure it ever was to be honest.
January 2nd, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Duncan!! Please tell me you don’t want a…nevermind.
Seriously, there is NOTHING wrong with men being attracted to good looking women! Hell no. Women who live to attract men go too far in my mind- but whatever. What counts is what happens within the relationship…like you say- companionship, friendship, lover- all those things.
Men who downplay their own ability to see past the evils of feminism (and there are many) are weak minded and wussbagged out. LOL Men who live in a world they know nothing of, that world in the 1950’s and 60’s are stuupid. Get with the modern world and stop complaining. Adapt. Grow up. Get a grip. And respect women for the gifts they will always bring to any relationship.
January 3rd, 2007 at 7:02 am
Wednesday Morning Links
Photo on right of the new temporary Principle of my kids’ grammar school.George Bernard Shaw was a Fabian. So are most of our modern Dems.True love? A beautiful thing. Wizbang. Obviously, the problem was taking the "obey" part out.Do high t…
January 3rd, 2007 at 8:43 am
A Question Of Balance
Yesterday over at the Cotillion this post raised quite a few hackles: Instead of getting frustrated by men, and accusing your son of having ‘ADD,’ perhaps women could simply try to understand them. It seems to me that we live…
January 8th, 2007 at 2:55 am
“The sort of men who feel threatened by the existence of powerful, educated, independent women are dangerous anachronisms. We’re better off without them.”
And what of the women who are apparently threatened by powerful, educated, independent men? Is there no hope them either?
January 15th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Some woman are single not by choice. Some have tried every means of finding a companion, but the men are just not bitting. Men will say that it’s because “they’re not attractive” or if the woman has kids, “they have to much baggage” these ideals that men do lead some woman to be single, no matter how those women try to make themselves attractive (spending money practicaly on Every body modification technique or other. And even when the woman tries to keep her personal life away from her kid’s untill the right time is to introduce “IT” . I have been a mom for 7 years, and I have not gone on ONE date! AND NOT BY CHOICE!!!!! I have tried to date but I get both examples EVERY SINGLE TIME! I have NO high expections, and I’m very versitle with “attributes” that I would like in a man, and the most important, I am very independent and well to do. I DO NOT require ANY MAN to support me!!!!!! (this is usauly what men belive baggage is..that most single mom’s want to be taken care of..)so why have the men not bitten? my experience with men has to do with the super model ideals they want from a woman. And also with no kids because they either 1. are not planning to stay long… or 2. they begin to fill pressuered (which can be understood) or 3. men do not want to contend with kids for attention.. and finaly…4. they belive that the relationship the mother had with that child’s father could be “messy” and they do not want to deal with the emotions (if any ) that they think the mother’s are “lugging around”, they don’t want to be emotionaly intimate …esp. if they are not planning to staying around.. you all know the term..”seeking SHORT TERM relationships. In these ways men can be VERY selfish..in most casees anyways. Woman do want to feel intimante and sexy and loved most ofton over “taken care of” even if they are a single parent, they have primal needs just like men!!!!!!!!!
January 18th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Sorry, but I think you are a feminist, Raven; even if you don’t realize it. You might want to think about that some more. It looks to me like you were looking for ways to make comments about men and women, and almost all of your comments on men except for your initial “I like men, really…” (paraphrased) were negative. You ranted on choices of words in his post without trying to understand.
Can’t someone “support” while still being a “partner”? I believe the answer MUST be that this is possible. In fact I’d argue that it’s the best kind of partnership; and that it has been a missing element in many modern marriages. It is not a sign of weakness as many might fear, but a sign of strength and compassion.
In terms of William Harley’s list; “LOVE” was not missing in the list. I haven’t read his book; but the list provided appears to be a breakdown of what men and women MEAN when they say LOVE. Look at the items again, and you’ll see.
I’m sorry you had a bad marriage. But I don’t see why you think you can label men as being threatened by your strength (a typical piece of feminist dogma) while claiming while claiming to like men and not being a feminist.
Regarding “the vote” in some comments above, I’ve recently come across an interesting article which may be some food for thought.
http://members.tripod.com/feministhate/id49.htm
Certainly looks like the guy did his homework; and it makes a lot of sense. I haven’t seen any rebuttals to this yet. Democracy is general is a relatively new concept after all.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:27 am
PS, “not my choice”;
“baggage” doesn’t only mean that there are financial responsibilities, but that there is a father in the picture (whether present or not) and that there are unresolved issues with rejection and with men in general. These typically exist in families with single mothers. These are a lot of things for someone “on the outside” to willingly choose to get into. Perhaps instead of calling men names like “selfish” and acknowledged and appreciated the sacrifices that a man would need to make in order to have a relationship with you; you’d have a little more luck.
January 18th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Alen get a life.
I DO like men. A lot. Real men, not whining wussbags.
Like you. And the author of the original post quoted here. The times have changed; women have more expectations and they should. They have choices. If she wants to stay at home, good on her. If she wants to work, good on her. If she wants to be a domestic supporter, good on her BUT she’s not going to be happy in the end, if she calls herself this. If her man calls her this as well is asking for trouble.
LOVE is not mentioned. Period. Because it’s not there; it’s not a requirement of the assart who wrote the original post.
It matters that men are thanked for all they do- and I think most women DO appreciate and thank their guys…but women rarely get that back.
So call me a feminist because I chose to call men on being wimps and for whining- traits I CANNOT stand.
Men who wish to live in times past AND who moan and complain about it are total complete boring turn offs who deserve it when their women CHEAT on them.
You talk too much BTW- another trait I cannot stand in men. Just shut up and be one.
January 19th, 2007 at 8:18 am
Raven, I couldn’t care less if you liked me or not. You can insult me and revert to childish name calling all you like. Go ahead if it sooths your ego. But being called on your opinions is the risk you take in putting them on an open forum and allowing feedback.
Looks like you’ve got some more thinking to do if you don’t like it…