Jun 29 2007
Baptism of Fire, Almost: London Terrorist Attack Foiled
Across the pond in Great Britain we’re waking up to news of a car bomb that wasn’t- but the potential damage would have been horrific. The new Prime Minister, Mr. Brown, has been baptized so to speak.
FOX News:
LONDON — British police defused a bomb found in a parked car in central London on Friday, and the new government called an emergency meeting of senior security chiefs to investigate what many feared could have been a planned terror attack.
A British security official told The Associated Press that the car was packed with explosives, gas canisters and nuts and bolts and would have caused “significant damage.”
He said there were similarities between the device and vehicle bombs used by insurgents in Iraq.
“Forensic staff are still examining the device, but once we know more about it, we’ll know more about what type of individuals are behind this,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the security details.
Significant damage? This translates into hundreds of deaths and even more grisly injuries. The car was in the theater district where all the bars are, night clubs and the like. Strange how the young people of Britain, who so vehemently deny there is a threat, would have been the victims of this attack.
BBC:
Police were alerted by an ambulance crew who spotted smoke coming from the silver Mercedes, which was parked near the Tiger Tiger nightclub.
“International elements” are believed to be involved, the BBC has been told.
[...]
Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Britain faces “a serious and continuous threat”.He added the public “need to be alert” at all times.
[...]
The BBC’s Andy Tighe said the timing was significant coming a day after Gordon Brown became prime minister, and with the second anniversary of the 7 July bombings approaching.
I have to be critical of the new PM’s response to this. While people do need to be alert at all times, government needs to take a harsher stance on these things. Perhaps it’s too early for the new PM to speak much more but Mr. Brown is no Tony Blair, that is obvious.
Beth speaks well of the probable reaction from liberals all over the world, particularly here in the US and in GB:
I wonder, will the Left here and in the UK claim this was fake? All a setup? How many of these incidents, “successful” and/or thwarted, do they need to see to start believing that genuine evil does, in fact, exist? Or will they just write it off as usual to the war in Iraq?
More details will come out as the day moves forward. Thankfully some concerned citizens called the British authorities when they noticed the car. Let’s hope Britain doesn’t become a central front on the War On Terror…I suspect it will though.
UPDATE: Teach has more information.
22 Responses to “Baptism of Fire, Almost: London Terrorist Attack Foiled”
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Trackback Friday Featuring The Surrender Monkey: Terror Attack In London Thwarted
Happy Friday to all! It’s that time of the week again! Do you have an interesting post you want to share with everyone? The official Surrender Monkey of the Democratic Party says to do what the Lefties don’t, since they all have the same talking po…
I was flipping back and forth between the big three news networks. Most of the speculation about who did it (what little there was) kept talking about “it looks like IRA bombs from the late 1960’s-early 1970’s”. So the results are already in, it’s time-traveling Irish-nationalists (and definitely not that particular group which has become the usual suspects in the last 10 years)!
Though, to me, it sounds more like typical Palastinain M.O. scaled up and minus the rat poison on the nails.
The MSM doesn’t want this to be the work if Islamic freaks, so they’re telling us WHO might be responsible in hopes that we can be fooled. NOT. We will know soon enough; much spec is going to the HOMEGROWN terrorist thought as well; so be it…BUT consider how many Muslimes live in GB…I would be concerned.
“Significant damage? This translates into hundreds of deaths and even more grisly injuries.”
Dont exagerate.
For a compatison, the July bombings achieved 52 deaths, not including the bombers. Plus another hundred injured enough to need at least overnight hospitalisation. A little impressive, but it took *four* bombs. Three on the underground, one on a bus - all places where lots of people were packed in confined spaces.
So how could *one* bomb, on a less densly-packed road, have achieved ‘hundreds’ of deaths? It couldn’t. Perhaps twenty, if the terrorists had a lot of luck. Certinly not hundreds.
Us Brits are a bit harder to get worked up than you Americans. We had the july bombings, and really shrugged them off - just fixed up the tube lines and forgot about it.
Suricou,
Supposedly, the bar that the car was outside of had over a thousand people in it. If that is the case, then perhaps the death toll could have reached one hundred. Alot of speculation right now. I even heard that perhaps the bomber crashed the car on the way to a completely different and unrelated target.
“We had the july bombings, and really shrugged them off - just fixed up the tube lines and forgot about it.”
Please tell me that you Brits just didn’t “forget about it”. Putting your head in the sand sure as hell doesn’t fix the problem…. The death of even “perhaps twenty” is twenty too many in my opinion…
Hey Duncan,
check this out.
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2007/06/police_work_works.php
And from one of many British media reports:
Source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2003808.ece
Inside, officers discovered “significant quantities” of petrol, believed to be 60 litres, plus nails and gas cylinders. They used a remote-controlled device to check the vehicle, which was parked in Haymarket, before bomb squad officers made it safe.
If the device had exploded, police said that the shrapnel would have killed or injured anyone within a wide area. The bomb could have caused a fireball as big as a house followed by a large shock wave.
Typical of the Brits…a few lives are lost in any attack are not worth the attention and concern of anyone else. Yeah…the tough Brits. Heads In The Sand as always. The streets of London will be like the streets in Israel soon enough= where good people fall victim to radical Muslime terror.
Souricu: “Us Brits are a bit harder to get worked up than you Americans. We had the july bombings, and really shrugged them off - just fixed up the tube lines and forgot about it.”
I suppose you lost a loved one in that attack, and just shrugged it off and forgot all about them. Screw it, they were only people after all.
You think that makes you better than us Americans because we take issue with the murder of our loved ones?
Seems they have found a second car loaded with items that cause damage to human beings. I didn’t get an estimated potential head count as to how many people might get hurt but heck it doesn’t matter with the Brits. What’s 20? or 1000? Not much.
Yes, we didn’t panic at the last round of attacks. And thats what should be done. They are terrorist attacks, after all - their objective is to cause terror. Stay calm, and no terror is caused. This doesn’t mean the attacks were ignored, but there wasn’t the type of chaotic panic that other attacks have produced. Just a simple criminal investigation. Those responsible were found, tried, and punished appropriately.
The response is proportionate. 20 deaths is regretable, but its still only 20. Spending billions of pounds on counter-terrorism would save lives, yes, but compare the death-toll from domestic terrorism to, say, traffic accidents. Heart disease. Cancer. Accidents. Each of these kills far more people than terrorist attacks each year. Even 911, by any definition one of the most damaging, caused only as many deaths in total as just over a month of road fatalities in the US.
Terrorism is, in media terms, sexy. Its death with a human face, someone to blame, and a global struggle. This makes it easy to get carried away and go over the top, acting as though the fall of civilisation is imminent. But a look at some statistics shows that terrorism just isn’t that big of a problem within the UK, or the US. The response to it is completly out of proportion to the impact.
I done think this bomb could even have gone off - im not much of an expert, but gas canisters really are tricky things to make blow up. They have pressure valves. To make even a petrol vapor bomb is very tricky. Ive, er, experimented with alcohol-air mixes. For fun. I got lots of very nice fireballs, but no explosion. Gas-air mix went no better (Other than hydrogen-oxygen). Its not impossible to get an explosion, but it takes a skilled terrorist to get the mix right. And given that this bunch have made two cars, managed to crash one, didn’t detonate either… im not at all impressed with their level of competance. I think they have more enthusiasm than skill.
The crashing makes me particually suspicious. Why? It seems odd to crash a car-bomb. Should there not be some form of detonator to ensure it goes off? Or at least a driver with a lighter? Leaving a car packed with petrol and gas canisters around is going to attract police attention.
Those gas canisters are another bad choice of explosive. They cant explode - pressure-release valves prevent that - and the use of a gas-air mix explosive is completly incompatable with a shrapnel bomb. Its as though these cars are nothing but sharp objects and explosive material thrown together, with a lot of hope that the crash will set them off.
The police have claimed it would have made a huge fireball, and on that I would agree. But on the shockwave… while I would take the word of an explosives expert after a through investigation, I am not willing to accept a general police statement issued within hours of the bomb’s discovery and completly lacking in details of construction or functioning.
“Supposedly, the bar that the car was outside of had over a thousand people in it. If that is the case, then perhaps the death toll could have reached one hundred.”
Only if there was an explosion large enough to cause the building to collapse. Or if the terrorist stayed behind to wait until closing time. As the car was crashed rather than parked, I think the latter can be eliminated.
I must give these bombers points for effort, but they seem to be the latest in a long line who have determination without means. I find it quite insulting to be attacked by such incompetents - surely this country is worthy of someone a bit more challenging? :>
SR check this out:
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/06/house-sized-fir.html#more
Instead of getting your info from amateurs listen to the pros.
Lo and beho:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/06/terror-plot-inv.html
British police have a “crystal clear” picture of the man who drove the bomb-rigged silver Mercedes outside a London nightclub, and officials tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com he bears “a close resemblance” to a man arrested by police in connection with another bomb plot but released for lack of evidence.
Terrorplotinv_main Officials say the suspect had been taken into custody in connection with the case of al Qaeda operative Dhiren Barot (pictured), who was convicted of orchestrating a vehicle bomb plot involving targets in London, New York, Newark, N.J. and Washington, D.C.
Nuff said. SR, you shouldn’t be so non-chalant about this stuff. Really. Be thankful your fellow countrymen lived. Be alert and aware and safe. In spite of yourself, I do worry about the lack of alarm you seem to present yourself with.
Raven, im not too confident in the expert oppionion you offer. There are some details that just feel strange - like the propane vapor spreading to a large area before igniting. Thats not going to happen unless the canister is opened, and then an ignition device set off on a time delay. Even then it wouldn’t work if there was wind. Determining the correct delay would require test-runs which wern’t noticed. The only way that propane is going to be explosive would be if it were confined inside the car, in which case there is only room for a few cubic meters. Then there are those nails - as pointed out by the commenters, shrapnel isn’t propelled far by fireballs. Shrapnel and fuel-air bombs just are not compatable. It sounds more like a plausable worst-case scenario, but not the most likely outcome.
I stand by my own estimate - it would have made a *BIG* fireball. Anyone nearby would get severely burnt. But the actual explosion would have been very weak, so the club users would be safe indoors. Unless the car was set off right next to a window, then it could be a lot worse.
That said, there is currently a near-complete lack of information regarding the bombs. The police have so far revealed that the bombs involved petrol and gas canisters, but no more - there has been no word regarding detonation mechanism, the amounts of explosive, or even if the windows were open or closed. Detonation is particually important, as this does appear to be a fuel-air bomb, and those need to be set off at the right moment.
“Nuff said. SR, you shouldn’t be so non-chalant about this stuff. Really. Be thankful your fellow countrymen lived. Be alert and aware and safe. In spite of yourself, I do worry about the lack of alarm you seem to present yourself with.”
Police investigation launched. Civil detective work determines who did it. They get arrested, get a fair trial, and into prison they go. They wont be launching any attacks from there. That is how terrorist attacks *should* be handled. None of that indefinate-detention-without-trial oppression or secret spy programs that the US government determined was the solution. No military involvement. Just good old police-work.
“The second bomb was found several hours after bomb disposal experts had defused the first bomb outside the busy Tiger Tiger nightclub in Haymarket.
It was discovered in a blue 280E model Mercedes in a Park Lane car pound, where it had been towed after being given a ticket for illegally parking in Cockspur Street, near Trafalgar Square.”
…
Usless terrorists.
“Just good old police-work.”
Yep. Just stay on the defensive. Always react. Works really well. Just keep reacting until the enemy is on your doorstep. That is one philosophy, treat it less like a military matter and more like a criminal one. Let us know how that works out for you guys.
See, I agree that these people are soldiers, on their violent Jihad against the west. The only problem is that they don’t happen to work for a particular nation-state, and that would make it easier for even the blindest to see that these people are not criminals for the civilian legal system to prosecute. They are combatants.
Read this.
Here is an excerpt:
Not much different from our terrorists today. They work for a pseudo-government of organized and freelance jihadists bent on destroying and converting the west to Islam and sharia law. They want to attack train stations and bridges. And the usual suspects also want to treat them as civilians just like they did in Roosevelt’s day. Thank the good Lord above that the supreme court wasn’t made up of the weak-knee’d liberals who seem to follow each other off the ledge of political correctness like little ignorant lemmings. Today’s jihadists should be treated as illegal combatants and saboteurs. Those people are tried and summarily executed. Not given three square a day and a bed.
“Then there are those nails - as pointed out by the commenters, shrapnel isn’t propelled far by fireballs. Shrapnel and fuel-air bombs just are not compatable.”
All shrapnel needs is a propellant. I am not a bomb expert. I do understand that if there is an explosion, air is forced away from the center of the explosion. There is probably going to be a fireball. But air will be traveling away from the explosion, probably carrying light objects, such as glass, nails or ball bearings. Might not be as effective as a car packed full of C4 or leftover warheads, but if the car is surrounding by 100+ people leaving a night club, then it will do its job nicely I suspect.
My buddies that were in Iraq encountered a few things like this. It’s not good at huge area effect damage, like say a mk. 82 500lb bomb, or taking out armored vehicles, but will royally screw up a crowded market (or in the British case, a crouded nightclub scene) if it goes off.
I don’t know the layout of the bomb, and as such this is all speculation: The natural gas canisters were to cause the initial explosion. These things are increadibly easy to set off (shoot one with a 9mm rifle, see what happens. It’s even more spectacular when it’s only about 1/2 full). This initial explosion causes the propellant for the shrapnel packets to go off, and the petrol tanks are there to set anything nearby on fire.
“Shrapnel and fuel-air bombs just are not compatable.”
Tell that to the VC we dropped daisycutters on in Vietnam.
“Tell that to the VC we dropped daisycutters on in Vietnam”
True dat. Double true.
Raven I guess your resident troll (muslim convert?) has a high tolerance for heartache, violence committed in the name of religion, or is just plain stupid.
I would ask him if he was the Bully in the playground or the wimp? how many times do you turn the other cheek before you say enough and take out that which is annoying? these attacks are not militarily sound, they will not achieve anything other than angered responses and in the near future a removal of ALL tolerance toward any MUSLIM…… Keep on going jihadi’s eventually the “Civilian Targets” of Islam, will wake up and take matters into their own hands.
SR, the only problem with using simple criminal justice techniques against terrorism is that it doesn’t work in the long run. Clinton did nothing but that for 8 years, and the attacks got worse and worse and then we ended up with 9/11, Madrid and the London bombings. At some point you have to get mad enough that a warped ideology thinks it OK to set off bombs killing unsuspecting and innocent lives. When will you reach that point? After a 9/11 type attack in your country, my gods I hope not.
“Tell that to the VC we dropped daisycutters on in Vietnam”
Daisycutter? You mean the BLU-82? Yep, thats one very effective shrapnel bomb. Its also a high-explosive shrapnel bomb. High explosive and shrapnel are a great combination if you want to deal some heavy damage over a large area. It was not a fuel-air bomb by any definition.
The problem with fuel-air and shrapnel is that the explosion is too defuse. On conventional explosions, something goes bang, and you pack shrapnel around it. Easy. On fuel-air, there is a large volume that goes bang. If your shrapnel is inside that (ie, inside the car), then it doesn’t go anywhere. If its too far away, it doesn’t go anywhere. It needs to be in the right place. Windows would make the best shrapnel a bomb like that could produce - the nails were just unneeded.
The car-bombs appear to be fuel-air, largely by accident - petrol and butane canisters? Fireball, easy, but to get a big explosion you need to make it all go up at once. The greatest danger would be flying glass when the petrol vapor inside blew up and shattered the windows. Even that would be weak - mostly, all you would get is a burning car. After a while the butane canister would rupture, then you get a big jet of flame, but again no explosion.
As bombs go, these two were just badly designed and badly built. Would they do damage? Yes, but only if they were set off in a crowd. They just wouldn’t have the range otherwise. As Ranba pointed out. Now, for that to happen, someone would have to set off the bomb from within sight so they could watch for people exiting the club (Those inside would be safe, unless it has large glass windows). That means this is not a completly usless bomb. It is just a lot less effective than the designers intended - their decision to put nails in shows they expected a larger explosion then they would have gotten.
Ranba, you said you know a bit about these bombs. Would the nails have made any difference?
The attackers, however, didn’t know this. If they had known about their bomb’s limited range, they would have had someone on lookout with a mobile-phone or radio detonator, waiting. As one of the bombs was defused, and the other actually towed away, this was clearly not the case. There was noone waiting. If there were, they would have set the bombs off when the ambulence crew, police, or tow-truck were nearby.
In summary:
- The bombs were effective only at close range as their explosive power would have been quite low.
- The presence of nails in the bombs shows that the designers expected a greater explosion than would have actually been produced, and one of a very different type.
- The limited range problem could have been solved by manual detonation.
- The attackers didn’t have plans for a manual detonation, therefore they were unaware of the limited range.
Robert: Are you refering to me? Im not a convert, I dislike all religions. I dislike some more than others, and islam ranks just between fundamentalist christianity and non-fundamentalist christianity in my scale.
Sorry for the late response, I have been busy with work.
You’re right on the daisy cutter. I got it’s detonation properties mixed up with those of the submunitions in the BLU-73/95/96’s.
Like I said, it’s effectiveness depends on the layout of the bomb. I only have knowledge of what I’ve studied (descriptions of bombs in historical texts) and what friends have told me. No application experience, other than my cousin and I shooting at various things and trying out shooting an old propane tank –very stupid in retrospect, but stupidity is the forte of teens. You’re right, if the nails and stuff were ‘in’ the bomb itself, (like the center or even right against the propane tanks themselves) they might not go very far. If they were arranged around the outside of the bomb at a slight distance they would have their propelling force from the shockwave. The single propane tank we set off managed to throw some rocks through the aluminum siding of the abandoned barn about 75 feet away. The enclosed space of the car would have limited that –it’s effective radius reduced by the amount of material in the doors and redirection of the shock– but would be more than adequate on a soft target, like a line waiting to get into a night club or people coming out of it–if it were rigged properly.
But it’s all speculation on both our parts. If you go by what FAS says about Fuel-Air Explosive devices, it’s difficult to calculate the effectiveness of a FAE, even with computers, because there are too many pressure variables in play at every instant of the explosion for reliable modeling to be done without actual physical tests.